Curse

Miral · Jun 17, 2007, 05:21 PM // 17:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Navaros

This reminds me of when Survivor first was put into the game and 100% of everyone's original main characters were screwed over without the chance of getting it since they didn't know beforehand their deaths would be held against them. Anet didn't do anything to stop screwing over those beloved original characters and give them an equal opportunity at earning Survivor. I don't see why Faction amber/jade traders should get more special treatment than Survivor title seekers who never had a chance to get Survivor on their old main character.

because survivor is still just a title that grants no benefits? because dying vs not dying isn't a choice, but rather a matter of well well you play?

and samurai, its still an abandonment of the original concept of guildwars...

edit: not that I'm saying I wouldn't like to see survivor changed so its just x amount of xp gained in a row without dying, but I give more precedence to the faction skill issue

Lonesamurai · Jun 17, 2007, 05:50 PM // 17:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miral

and samurai, its still an abandonment of the original concept of guildwars...

not at all as the original exclamation of "skill over time spent" was meant for PvP, although it slightly failed (slightly?) due to the grinding for skill aquisition

Navaros · Jun 17, 2007, 06:10 PM // 18:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miral

because dying vs not dying isn't a choice, but rather a matter of well well you play?

It wasn't an informed choice to not die before the Survivor title was put into the game. Many many characters would have made sure to have not died if they knew their deaths would be held against them in the future.

The complaint of amber and jade traders that they did not get to make an informed choice is no more valid than the exact same complaint from people who had no chance to get Survivor on their main character.

For Anet to cave to one of these complaintant groups yet not the other would be grossly unequitable. Since Survivor has been an outstanding issue for longer, the only equitable thing to do would be to fix that one first. Otherwise, leave them both as is.

Miral · Jun 17, 2007, 06:15 PM // 18:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lonesamurai

not at all as the original exclamation of "skill over time spent" was meant for PvP, although it slightly failed (slightly?) due to the grinding for skill aquisition

not just for pvp. a core selling point of guildwars was ability to see all content without grinding

The Hand Of Death · Jun 17, 2007, 06:16 PM // 18:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

/unsigned

We got anywhere up to 5-6 plat for each of those amber/jade chunks back in the day, whereas the people (at least the vast majority that weren't in town owning guilds) that opted to put that faction to their title got nothing except the title itself.

If you want retroactive titles for amber earn't, then anet would need to give at least 1kgc per 1k faction donated prior to the change to make it fair.

]

Ok, so what about all the people who put money into jade/amber AFTER they stopped being 5-6 plat. I know when I first got factions amber was at 4k and jade was at 3.5k or something like that and I joined an FF guild, got my title and left. At that time jade/amber were around 500g, do you think it is fair that I don't get the rewards of the title, while you still get the 1k for every 1k faction turned in even when I wasn't trading it in for jade at the time it was really expensive? Your idea screws over all the people who came late.

Sal · Jun 17, 2007, 06:39 PM // 18:39

I fail to see how the title bearers can't understand the injustice of this update. It's really very simple , it all comes down to a choice that each player had to make while working their way through the factions campaign.

A. Spend faction earned on a title

B. Spend faction earned on rare materials

Players that choose to spend faction on the title were aiming for a reward of wearing a title.

Players that chose to spend faction for rare materials were aiming for a reward of gold or armor.

Both choices were made with full knowledge of what the reward was , either the prestige of wearing the title , or the prestige of having gold or prefered armor.

If the players that chose to spend faction earned on a title somehow feel they got less , then they made the wrong choice to begin with. Now that they received new skills for the title , they seem to think that it's their just reward.

Does this not degrade their choice in the first place ?

Look at me , I have a cool title

Look at me , I have new shiny armor

Get it ?

Skills are for everyone , Anet should get it right and change the aquisition of the skills , period.

greenthumb · Jun 17, 2007, 06:52 PM // 18:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Navaros

It wasn't an informed choice to not die before the Survivor title was put into the game. Many many characters would have made sure to have not died if they knew their deaths would be held against them in the future.

The complaint of amber and jade traders that they did not get to make an informed choice is no more valid than the exact same complaint from people who had no chance to get Survivor on their main character.

For Anet to cave to one of these complaintant groups yet not the other would be grossly unequitable. Since Survivor has been an outstanding issue for longer, the only equitable thing to do would be to fix that one first. Otherwise, leave them both as is.

There's a certain analogy there in comparing the two. Perhaps Survivor could've been implemented another way....personally, when it first came out, I first thought it was a consecutive period of experience without dying, but we know that's not the case. The survivor titles were designed with another concept in mind. For some, it's a shame that's the case. (Perhaps when the title came out, they could've wiped the slate of deaths clean.)

That's still a different matter. Why does the same injustice need to occur here then? Why does one injustice somehow justify another which could probably be addressed by ANet?

In this specific case, for the Luxon/Kurzick skills, the system does keep track of faction earned. Is there some inherent unfairness if faction earned was taken into account, or perhaps some other mechanism was used instead? Is there an argument that it is somehow fair to base these "out-of-the-blue", unexpected Luxon-Kurzick skills off those Alliance titles?

It is an unexpected windfall. No one deserves it. How should it be apportioned out?

The fairest thing would actually be a new title.

Even if effectiveness of the Luxon/Kurzick skills was based off of those Alliance titles, is there any reason why eligibility to acquire the Luxon/Kurzick skills shouldn't be relaxed to something less restrictive than rank 1 of those Alliance titles? E.g., faction earned or completion of those 10K Befriending the Luxons/Kurzick quests?

Miral · Jun 17, 2007, 07:27 PM // 19:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sal

I fail to see how the title bearers can't understand the injustice of this update. It's really very simple , it all comes down to a choice that each player had to make while working their way through the factions campaign.

A. Spend faction earned on a title

B. Spend faction earned on rare materials

Players that choose to spend faction on the title were aiming for a reward of wearing a title.

Players that chose to spend faction for rare materials were aiming for a reward of gold or armor.

Both choices were made with full knowledge of what the reward was , either the prestige of wearing the title , or the prestige of having gold or prefered armor.

If the players that chose to spend faction earned on a title somehow feel they got less , then they made the wrong choice to begin with. Now that they received new skills for the title , they seem to think that it's their just reward.

Does this not degrade their choice in the first place ?

Look at me , I have a cool title

Look at me , I have new shiny armor

Get it ?

Skills are for everyone , Anet should get it right and change the aquisition of the skills , period.

the thing people dont seem to udnerstand is that we're not asking to wear their title. we just want the PvE skills in full capacity.

Kool Pajamas · Jun 17, 2007, 08:46 PM // 20:46

You can STILL get the titles. Stop whining. Go get faction. The skills arent even that great....I dont understand why people want them so much. They really dissapointed me with the pve skills. The people who dont have the titles yet are NOT losing ANYTHING. Gaining pve only skills is not a competition. They do not give any advantage over anyone. There are plenty of skills to use until you get the titles if you want them. Why do people have an obsession about obtaining every single little thing in the game? You dont need every title in the game, you dont need every pve only skill in the game, you dont need every armor, or every whatever. Anet puts things in as options. If you do want to get everything in the game then work for it. Dont expect it to be handed to you.

If they want to make the SKILLS ONLY retroactive thats fine. But DONT touch the titles.

Gli · Jun 17, 2007, 09:15 PM // 21:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kool Pajamas

You can STILL get the titles. Stop whining. Go get faction. The skills arent even that great....I dont understand why people want them so much. They really dissapointed me with the pve skills. The people who dont have the titles yet are NOT losing ANYTHING. Gaining pve only skills is not a competition. They do not give any advantage over anyone. There are plenty of skills to use until you get the titles if you want them. Why do people have an obsession about obtaining every single little thing in the game? You dont need every title in the game, you dont need every pve only skill in the game, you dont need every armor, or every whatever. Anet puts things in as options. If you do want to get everything in the game then work for it. Dont expect it to be handed to you.

If they want to make the SKILLS ONLY retroactive thats fine. But DONT touch the titles.

I think I get it. Nothing is important, no one needs anything, there's no competition. But when your title is threatened all hell breaks loose. Yep, it's all perfectly clear to me now.

Miral · Jun 17, 2007, 09:15 PM // 21:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kool Pajamas

If they want to make the SKILLS ONLY retroactive thats fine. But DONT touch the titles.

thats 110% fine with me. make it so you can get the skills with some degree of power WITHOUT grinding, and all is well. you can keep your titles, armor people can keep their jade/amber, and everyone has equal access to the skills. that's all I'm asking for, equality. i save the lives of everyone in cantha, do it really efficiently to get rid of shiro for good, and then they STILL want me to farm 10,000,000 faction to get ONE semi-powerful skill *rolls eyes*

Kool Pajamas · Jun 17, 2007, 09:25 PM // 21:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gli

I think I get it. Nothing is important, no one needs anything, there's no competition. But when your title is threatened all hell breaks loose. Yep, it's all perfectly clear to me now.

No you didnt get it. What I said is that people are complaining because they chose to go one way but now they want both ways. And by doing that they screw over the people that chose the other way. It is still possible to get the titles. It doesnt take as long as you think. You pick one or the other (pre-update I'm talking about) and now people are whining that they want both because "OMG I NEEDZ TEH PVE ONLY SKILLZ NOW NOW NOW!1!one!11!!!1!!"

Miral · Jun 17, 2007, 09:30 PM // 21:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kool Pajamas

No you didnt get it. What I said is that people are complaining because they chose to go one way but now they want both ways. And by doing that they screw over the people that chose the other way. It is still possible to get the titles. It doesnt take as long as you think. You pick one or the other (pre-update I'm talking about) and now people are whining that they want both because "OMG I NEEDZ TEH PVE ONLY SKILLZ NOW NOW NOW!1!one!11!!!1!!"

Wait... how exactly does it screw you over if I get two PvE skills that you said yourself aren't all that?

This whole ordeal sounds like side A wants the new content they've been denied, while side B just wants to either keep denying them the new content to grow their epeen for having something others don't, or are just arguing for the sake of arguing...

Gli · Jun 17, 2007, 09:43 PM // 21:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kool Pajamas

And by doing that they screw over the people that chose the other way. It is still possible to get the titles. It doesnt take as long as you think. You pick one or the other (pre-update I'm talking about) and now people are whining that they want both because "OMG I NEEDZ TEH PVE ONLY SKILLZ NOW NOW NOW!1!one!11!!!1!!"

But if everyone gets the title today, you lose nothing. There's no competition, it's just a few letters beneath your name. Why would you care if everyone gets the title retroactively? How would you be screwed by what happens to people playing in different instances of the game? How does it help to post all-caps, infantile nonsense phrases?

And seriously, everytime someone traded in some faction since the update went live, I got screwed a little. It's still happening right now... I'm getting screwed as I'm typing this. Hundreds if not thousands of people are probably trading in faction for materials right now and getting title advancement. I'm not just being screwed, it's a goddamn gang-bang.

You being screwed is apparently something that's absolutely unacceptable, me being screwed is something I should just suck up and deal with. I absolutely do get it. Please, waste no more words on it.

bilateralrope · Jun 17, 2007, 10:22 PM // 22:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lonesamurai

/seconded

i never had any intention of getting the "friend of..." title, no, I have to get it to get these skills? (although are the skills nessecary? no, but its useful to have them)

Well, until the skills make it into the various cookie cutter elite mission builds. Then you either have them, or you don't get into pugs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Navaros

This reminds me of when Survivor first was put into the game and 100% of everyone's original main characters were screwed over without the chance of getting it since they didn't know beforehand their deaths would be held against them. Anet didn't do anything to stop screwing over those beloved original characters and give them an equal opportunity at earning Survivor. I don't see why Faction amber/jade traders should get more special treatment than Survivor title seekers who never had a chance to get Survivor on their old main character.

Yes the survivor title situation also sucks. However there are two differences here:

1 - The survivor title give no benefit to gameplay.
2 - Unlike the survivor title which couldn't be made retroactive due to a lack of data, the kurzick/luxon titles can be made retroactive if they were just made to use your faction earned amount (hover the faction bar) because they do have know number.

Matsumi · Jun 17, 2007, 10:46 PM // 22:46

Seems like a bad idea, but I'm sure the leeches from FA would gather together and rejoice. About 3/4 of the 1.5 mil faction I earned on my account went toward cashing in on rare materials and getting armors, the rest towards alliance. I'd say that's fair enough, I knew exactly what I was doing with it before the changes, and now there's a different optional goal in mind if I want to get back into AB and FA. That is, if I care to even play pve again with those new skills. The only reason I started dumping it into alliance is because I lost interest in pve and had no more use for gold much anymore. I still don't quite understand this whole debate really, does this mean that I now have a ton of free pve skills because of the title? Because I still had to go to the rewards guy and purchase the skills at 3k a pop in faction. Not like I'm really gonna use them anyway, and they're no good to me in AB or FA.

Sorry, guess I just don't see what all the fuss is about.

Pwny Ride · Jun 17, 2007, 11:08 PM // 23:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matsumi

Sorry, guess I just don't see what all the fuss is about.

You will once you're influemced to post a whining rant about getting tino PvE groups because you lack the specific skills. For your own god, start seeing what the fuss is about.

Pwny Ride · Jun 17, 2007, 11:09 PM // 23:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matsumi

Sorry, guess I just don't see what all the fuss is about.

You will once you're influemced to post a whining rant about getting into PvE groups because you lack the specific skills. For your own good, start seeing what the fuss is about.

EDIT: oops! double post, my PC net lagged up >_<

Miral · Jun 17, 2007, 11:11 PM // 23:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matsumi

Seems like a bad idea, but I'm sure the leeches from FA would gather together and rejoice. About 3/4 of the 1.5 mil faction I earned on my account went toward cashing in on rare materials and getting armors, the rest towards alliance. I'd say that's fair enough, I knew exactly what I was doing with it before the changes, and now there's a different optional goal in mind if I want to get back into AB and FA. That is, if I care to even play pve again with those new skills. The only reason I started dumping it into alliance is because I lost interest in pve and had no more use for gold much anymore. I still don't quite understand this whole debate really, does this mean that I now have a ton of free pve skills because of the title? Because I still had to go to the rewards guy and purchase the skills at 3k a pop in faction. Not like I'm really gonna use them anyway, and they're no good to me in AB or FA.

Sorry, guess I just don't see what all the fuss is about.

Nope as a PvP player I don't think you would... lol... just kinda continues to prove the point actually, rewarding the pve skills for a primarily pvp (and also indirect pvp) title... while people going for mostly pve goals for the past year miss out on the new pve skills...

Niila · Jun 17, 2007, 11:28 PM // 23:28

Very good arguments here, but people, don't forget this thing:

# Exchanging faction points for amber or jade now gives progress toward these titles.

This is what made me thinking this change in the first place. If rare materials count now towards the title, why should not the ones we bought in the past count towards it?